Actually, EWoR is/was a local group here in Brooklyn... from what I know their "compositions" are mostly deterministic as well. They built insane arrays of effects (rack/pedal/etc) that basically took on a life of their own due internal feedback and ground hum. The first time I saw them they were using guitars, but by the time this album came out (a decade ago now), they were basically laying on stage in a pile of wires and various effects units fiddling with knobs occasionally when things got too boring or too out of hand.
Oddly enough, this album is called "Stəˈkæstɪk" ... if you google it, turns out is: stochastic (but the weird phonetic spelling) ... which has had an odd streak of popularity the last few years among the holier-than-thou proggy parrot set. Which is interesting.. I guess.
I wonder what would happen if you (or someone else) tried to visualize/animate patterns in music that is rarely, if ever, written down using Western notation?
The thing is, a lot of music from other countries and cultures - including music with complex polyrhythms - is learned and taught entirely by ear. That includes various kinds of percussion ensemble music from West African countries (Guinea, Senegal, Mali, Ghana, Nigeria and more), South Indian konnakol (which is vocal percussion but also highly melodic), how the tombak/zarb drum is used in Persian classical music, the massive groupings of percussion instruments in samba schools in Brazil, North Indian tabla drumming in classical performances... and on and on.
All of the examples i mentioned have inherent melodies, and are something different than what we Westerners think of as "rhythm." They're incredibly resistant to the concepts of Western notation, likely because Western notation can only go so far per highly complex polyrhythms and extremely long rhythmic /melodic patterns in many forms of non-Western music. There have been so many attempts at notating Mande percussion ensemble music from Guinea and Mali, yet i don't know of any that successfully captured the music - usually something is very off, whether it's time signatures, an understanding of how the various patterns interact both rhythmically and melodically, etc.
I chose examples of percussion mainly because I've been learning to play non-Western percussion (primarily Middle Eastern and W. African instruments and music) for quite a few years now. I'm not an ethnomus person, and the teachers I've had don't use any form of notation. The music (applies to "melody" instruments as well) is all taught by ear, although some people in the ME have adapted Western notation to Arab classical music over the course of the past few decades.
At any rate, it would be truly fascinating to see results of many different forms of music (which is outside the purview of Western music) in a visual form.
Thanks for your very interesting and thoughtful comment e.c.
The image in the post reflects a mathematical reality that could have relevance to musicians from all sorts of cultures. In that sense, it's quite different from what you are describing.
However, I have considered precisely what you have described. I agree with you, and the late musician Maud MacCarthy (possibly the first Westerner to learn Indian classical music in an immersive way) who said that 'notation kills Indian music'.
South Indian Carnatic music has a form of notation to describe rhythm. So for example, an Utterangam composition (part of a korvai) could be written as:
555 (3) 666 (3) 777 (1)
666 (3) 777 (3) 888 (1)
777 (3) 888 (3) 999
Writing that in Western notation can technically make sense, but the whole system and way of thinking is changed (as well as it becoming far more verbose). For example, bar lines have no relevance or meaning. There are cases where I use Western notation to translate an idea that might otherwise take a long time to explain, but it has to be clear that it is a translation and not a typical cultural representation.
I considered using shapes to visualise these rhythms, with colours representing different parts of the composition. If I had more time I would be tempted to do this in collaboration with an Indian classical musician, but at the moment my interest is geared more towards a kind of 'pure mathematics', rather than a specific cultural representation of music.
It's an interesting idea for sure; I expect it's happening somewhere.
Dom - I'm so far off from any sort of mathematics ("pure" or otherwise) that Western music theory is difficult for me. OTOH, I 1st started hearing various kinds of non-Western music when I was a small child, so it's not a case of beiing drawn in by or even choosing something due to my own wweak points per written notation or theory. More like I got to hear things that fascinated me, and later began to flip through large bins of cut-out LPs at a local discount store in search of interesting music. (I found many good Western classical recordings that way, as well as Persian classical music and a Harry Partch album that way.)
Interesting re. notation for konnakol, etc. I'd imagine that many people have developed their own forms of notation or tablature in order to get certain things down that they need for their own practice, or for that of students.
We tend to be so centered on things that we've developed that not many really know that there are *other* kinds of music out in the world that are very rewarding, if potentially difficult for us to understand, cf. both N. and S. Indian classical music (though for fairly obvious reasons, both tabla tarang and jaltarang are much easier for me to grasp than vocals and music for bowed and plucked string instruments). Arab, Persian, and Turkish classical/art music all have some very long and complex "rhythmic" cycles, though there really aren't enough recordings of Arab classical music being made today where the long, long cycles are used.
I wonder what would happen if entire gamelan performances - both the skeletal parts + increasingly complex patterns and ornamentation - could be analyzed with the software you're using, or similar? I have a friend who's a member of a Balinese gamelan that's owned by a university here in the States. I might send a link to your piece along to him.
BTW, i found out about your post vis Ted Gioia's repost on his blog (or newsletter, or whatever).
It's interesting to me - also concerning - to note that people from the US, Canada, and Europe who try to learn djembe/bass drum ensemble music via written notation never seem to develop an innate feel for it. Or else they do, but they have to set the idea of written notation aside before that can happen. It's not unlike many orchestral percussionists who can play excerpts from any number of pieces on different instruments, yet if asked to actually play an instrument - the tambourine, for example - they're lost, as they weren't taught to play anything but excerpts on the instrument. It seems to be entirely backwards, and it's definitely not something I've encountered often, since the training I do have isn't in or of that world at all.
But when you talk to people, musicians and non-musicians alike, from countries like Brazil, the whole notion of percussion being rhythm + melody is understood. There's no need to explain, unlike here in N. America, where it's a truly baffling idea to many people. And contentious as well, at times. (Even among some folks that I'd expect wouldn't be bothered by the notion - many of them jazz players.)
In terms of stepping outside of one's cultural system, I got lucky, as I lived in a city with an Indian centre for arts that was well-funded and affordable. By spending many years there, and taking an interest in everything they had to offer, be it food, dance, days of celebration etc. I found it easier to 'think' in a new way; not just learn a bunch of new patterns and melodies. Becoming 'bi-musical'. However, while there have been many welcome changes, ethnocentricism in music is still the norm.
I think there are many ways to understand and enjoy music. The fact that notation may not be what attracts you to music is immaterial. It's just one of many ways to enjoy music: I see great beauty in it, and opportunity, but I see great beauty and opportunity in all kinds of music.
I think there is a connection here with language. It's best not to translate, but to try to fully inhabit a new language and be with the people who speak it, not in an exploitative way where you seek to extract something from them, but out of a genuine spirit of interest and friendship. If I were to learn djembe I would not want to use Western notation. It would act as a barrier. Best to get fully absorbed into it, and then perhaps years later if you wish to transcribe you have the option, but that is not how you think about the music.
I think you're right about language, plus all the rest. It takes time and a willingness to go beyond our own cultural and personal barriers - ideas, attitudes, prejudices, and all the rest. (Although I'm absolutely not fluent in any other language, I have an ear for it and could no doubt learn if I set my mind to it, but being from the US, there's less need - though really, Spanish is our second language and I wish we'd recognize it as such. Not going to hold my breath, though.)
Hi Dom, wondering if you have worked with Cymatics at all? It seems to me you're doing something similar to that, except using rhythm rather than tone as the basis for pattern generation.
Hi Su Terry, that is a good point. I've not worked with it but I have seen video demonstrations. One difference here would be the sound is not creating the pattern; the pattern is creating the sound. There's an almost Platonic element to it. I'm drawn to the idea of the machine creating an image that requires human interpretation. Cymatics is a fascinating field but I have not yet found a way to incorporate it into my practice.
Yes, the pattern is creating the sound! Your work is fascinating, I'll be exploring more. Would like to include it in an upcoming course I'm teaching if that's ok: cuevasdelilalo.wixsite.com/metaphysics-of-music.
Love this Dom. What scale are you using in the 750 polyrhythm? I hear the harmonic series in there and wondered if you'd coded that in or if it is emerging from the notes combining.
I'd love to see animated versions with the sound so I can spot when I'm hearing the different star patterns in there.
It also makes me wonder if there's some fun to be had combining polyrhythms with the harmonograph, so using time as a plotting parameter instead of an axis.
Thanks Tim. Your ears are good. It is the harmonic series! I thought exactly the same about an animated version, though it slightly exceeds my programming ability at the moment. If you're up for a collaboration I'm happy to try to create something together.
The 750 poly-rhythms one is basically an entry-level Electric Waves of Resistance track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-zxGYaAp0o
Yes, similar timbre. The examples in the article are completely deterministic though, so follow a process, rather than having been shaped and composed
Actually, EWoR is/was a local group here in Brooklyn... from what I know their "compositions" are mostly deterministic as well. They built insane arrays of effects (rack/pedal/etc) that basically took on a life of their own due internal feedback and ground hum. The first time I saw them they were using guitars, but by the time this album came out (a decade ago now), they were basically laying on stage in a pile of wires and various effects units fiddling with knobs occasionally when things got too boring or too out of hand.
Oddly enough, this album is called "Stəˈkæstɪk" ... if you google it, turns out is: stochastic (but the weird phonetic spelling) ... which has had an odd streak of popularity the last few years among the holier-than-thou proggy parrot set. Which is interesting.. I guess.
Ah interesting, thanks, I will have a closer listen. Would love to visit New York someday.
Very interesting!
I wonder what would happen if you (or someone else) tried to visualize/animate patterns in music that is rarely, if ever, written down using Western notation?
The thing is, a lot of music from other countries and cultures - including music with complex polyrhythms - is learned and taught entirely by ear. That includes various kinds of percussion ensemble music from West African countries (Guinea, Senegal, Mali, Ghana, Nigeria and more), South Indian konnakol (which is vocal percussion but also highly melodic), how the tombak/zarb drum is used in Persian classical music, the massive groupings of percussion instruments in samba schools in Brazil, North Indian tabla drumming in classical performances... and on and on.
All of the examples i mentioned have inherent melodies, and are something different than what we Westerners think of as "rhythm." They're incredibly resistant to the concepts of Western notation, likely because Western notation can only go so far per highly complex polyrhythms and extremely long rhythmic /melodic patterns in many forms of non-Western music. There have been so many attempts at notating Mande percussion ensemble music from Guinea and Mali, yet i don't know of any that successfully captured the music - usually something is very off, whether it's time signatures, an understanding of how the various patterns interact both rhythmically and melodically, etc.
I chose examples of percussion mainly because I've been learning to play non-Western percussion (primarily Middle Eastern and W. African instruments and music) for quite a few years now. I'm not an ethnomus person, and the teachers I've had don't use any form of notation. The music (applies to "melody" instruments as well) is all taught by ear, although some people in the ME have adapted Western notation to Arab classical music over the course of the past few decades.
At any rate, it would be truly fascinating to see results of many different forms of music (which is outside the purview of Western music) in a visual form.
Thanks for your very interesting and thoughtful comment e.c.
The image in the post reflects a mathematical reality that could have relevance to musicians from all sorts of cultures. In that sense, it's quite different from what you are describing.
However, I have considered precisely what you have described. I agree with you, and the late musician Maud MacCarthy (possibly the first Westerner to learn Indian classical music in an immersive way) who said that 'notation kills Indian music'.
South Indian Carnatic music has a form of notation to describe rhythm. So for example, an Utterangam composition (part of a korvai) could be written as:
555 (3) 666 (3) 777 (1)
666 (3) 777 (3) 888 (1)
777 (3) 888 (3) 999
Writing that in Western notation can technically make sense, but the whole system and way of thinking is changed (as well as it becoming far more verbose). For example, bar lines have no relevance or meaning. There are cases where I use Western notation to translate an idea that might otherwise take a long time to explain, but it has to be clear that it is a translation and not a typical cultural representation.
I considered using shapes to visualise these rhythms, with colours representing different parts of the composition. If I had more time I would be tempted to do this in collaboration with an Indian classical musician, but at the moment my interest is geared more towards a kind of 'pure mathematics', rather than a specific cultural representation of music.
It's an interesting idea for sure; I expect it's happening somewhere.
Dom - I'm so far off from any sort of mathematics ("pure" or otherwise) that Western music theory is difficult for me. OTOH, I 1st started hearing various kinds of non-Western music when I was a small child, so it's not a case of beiing drawn in by or even choosing something due to my own wweak points per written notation or theory. More like I got to hear things that fascinated me, and later began to flip through large bins of cut-out LPs at a local discount store in search of interesting music. (I found many good Western classical recordings that way, as well as Persian classical music and a Harry Partch album that way.)
Interesting re. notation for konnakol, etc. I'd imagine that many people have developed their own forms of notation or tablature in order to get certain things down that they need for their own practice, or for that of students.
We tend to be so centered on things that we've developed that not many really know that there are *other* kinds of music out in the world that are very rewarding, if potentially difficult for us to understand, cf. both N. and S. Indian classical music (though for fairly obvious reasons, both tabla tarang and jaltarang are much easier for me to grasp than vocals and music for bowed and plucked string instruments). Arab, Persian, and Turkish classical/art music all have some very long and complex "rhythmic" cycles, though there really aren't enough recordings of Arab classical music being made today where the long, long cycles are used.
I wonder what would happen if entire gamelan performances - both the skeletal parts + increasingly complex patterns and ornamentation - could be analyzed with the software you're using, or similar? I have a friend who's a member of a Balinese gamelan that's owned by a university here in the States. I might send a link to your piece along to him.
BTW, i found out about your post vis Ted Gioia's repost on his blog (or newsletter, or whatever).
It's interesting to me - also concerning - to note that people from the US, Canada, and Europe who try to learn djembe/bass drum ensemble music via written notation never seem to develop an innate feel for it. Or else they do, but they have to set the idea of written notation aside before that can happen. It's not unlike many orchestral percussionists who can play excerpts from any number of pieces on different instruments, yet if asked to actually play an instrument - the tambourine, for example - they're lost, as they weren't taught to play anything but excerpts on the instrument. It seems to be entirely backwards, and it's definitely not something I've encountered often, since the training I do have isn't in or of that world at all.
But when you talk to people, musicians and non-musicians alike, from countries like Brazil, the whole notion of percussion being rhythm + melody is understood. There's no need to explain, unlike here in N. America, where it's a truly baffling idea to many people. And contentious as well, at times. (Even among some folks that I'd expect wouldn't be bothered by the notion - many of them jazz players.)
In terms of stepping outside of one's cultural system, I got lucky, as I lived in a city with an Indian centre for arts that was well-funded and affordable. By spending many years there, and taking an interest in everything they had to offer, be it food, dance, days of celebration etc. I found it easier to 'think' in a new way; not just learn a bunch of new patterns and melodies. Becoming 'bi-musical'. However, while there have been many welcome changes, ethnocentricism in music is still the norm.
I think there are many ways to understand and enjoy music. The fact that notation may not be what attracts you to music is immaterial. It's just one of many ways to enjoy music: I see great beauty in it, and opportunity, but I see great beauty and opportunity in all kinds of music.
I think there is a connection here with language. It's best not to translate, but to try to fully inhabit a new language and be with the people who speak it, not in an exploitative way where you seek to extract something from them, but out of a genuine spirit of interest and friendship. If I were to learn djembe I would not want to use Western notation. It would act as a barrier. Best to get fully absorbed into it, and then perhaps years later if you wish to transcribe you have the option, but that is not how you think about the music.
I think you're right about language, plus all the rest. It takes time and a willingness to go beyond our own cultural and personal barriers - ideas, attitudes, prejudices, and all the rest. (Although I'm absolutely not fluent in any other language, I have an ear for it and could no doubt learn if I set my mind to it, but being from the US, there's less need - though really, Spanish is our second language and I wish we'd recognize it as such. Not going to hold my breath, though.)
Something you might enjoy -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6WTAHKYTc
This is stunning!
You might be interested in some of her other videos. She's a musician and experiences synesthesia per notes, chords, and colors
Mind blowing!
Thanks Edna!
This is beautiful
Thanks Thea!
Hi Dom, wondering if you have worked with Cymatics at all? It seems to me you're doing something similar to that, except using rhythm rather than tone as the basis for pattern generation.
Hi Su Terry, that is a good point. I've not worked with it but I have seen video demonstrations. One difference here would be the sound is not creating the pattern; the pattern is creating the sound. There's an almost Platonic element to it. I'm drawn to the idea of the machine creating an image that requires human interpretation. Cymatics is a fascinating field but I have not yet found a way to incorporate it into my practice.
Yes, the pattern is creating the sound! Your work is fascinating, I'll be exploring more. Would like to include it in an upcoming course I'm teaching if that's ok: cuevasdelilalo.wixsite.com/metaphysics-of-music.
Thank you so much for the kind words. And yes, please do, I would be honoured.
Love this Dom. What scale are you using in the 750 polyrhythm? I hear the harmonic series in there and wondered if you'd coded that in or if it is emerging from the notes combining.
I'd love to see animated versions with the sound so I can spot when I'm hearing the different star patterns in there.
It also makes me wonder if there's some fun to be had combining polyrhythms with the harmonograph, so using time as a plotting parameter instead of an axis.
Thanks Tim. Your ears are good. It is the harmonic series! I thought exactly the same about an animated version, though it slightly exceeds my programming ability at the moment. If you're up for a collaboration I'm happy to try to create something together.
Let's talk about this. I'll give you a call!
Extraordinary images - beautiful to see sound visualised
Thank you!
Great post - I love musical visualisations, and seeing the patterns and shapes emerge like this is always fascinating!
Thanks Tom! Yes absolutely, especially when something defies your expectations.